It is one thing when innocent people die in armed conflicts. That is bad enough. But it is much worse when innocent people are deliberately targeted. That is simply inexcusable and not the fault of the Netanyahu government. Hamas cannot claim to be resisting when its targets are not the groups or institutions that oppress the Palestinians. One can only come to such a conclusion if one adopts Hamas’ interpretation of who the oppressors are. Namely, all Jews or Israelis by virtue of their origin.

I do not think we can agree on this. My view of humanity is fundamentally different from yours. Discussing normative principles is pointless. However, I find your attitude so cynical and appalling that I no longer wish to engage in further debate. I very rarely do this, but I have now blocked you.

My point is that you gloss over the suffering of innocent people while excusing the actions of the respective murderers, just as people on the other side do. Namely, as a necessary and inevitable consequence of the other leaders’ actions. You argue structurally against the innocent victims using the same logic as the supporters of the IDF.

It is a reversal of perpetrator and victim to appease your own conscience. An exaggerated and thus dehumanising tribalism that draws legitimacy for crimes against innocent people from the crimes of another group of actors. It is a misanthropic and cynical logic with which any atrocity could be justified (which is, of course, done constantly around the world).

Hamas and IDF supporters are equally malicious and disgusting. The murder of innocent people is always and fundamentally wrong. Leftists must reject and fight it.

What a dehumanising and despicable statement. The people murdered by Hamas did nothing wrong. Certainly nothing that could justify their deaths. They did not colonise anything either; they were simply born there.

This conflict really brings out the worst in some people. On the one hand, they blame the murder of innocent people on colonialism, and on the other, on the alleged human shield tactic.

This contextualisation, relativisation and, in some cases, romanticisation of human suffering is absolutely disgusting and must stop.

Those who deliberately kill innocent people lose the right to be considered the resistance. They should kill the fucking IDF. But not kids at a music festival or random civilians.

Except that the “Zionist infestation” is a fictional construct in this case. db0 is fighting ghosts.

Killing innocent people is never a legitimate defense. Actually, it is no defense at all, because these innocent people did nothing to Gaza or Hamas.

An anarchist instance that chooses an authoritarian, Islamist, and reactionary organization as the hill on which it wants to die. It makes you want to bang your head against the table. What I see this much more as is a case of double standards. Because the IDF, which also kills innocent people, makes the same argument. “Oh, it’s just defense.”

You still haven’t explained what is Zionist about calling Hamas Terrorist. You simply don’t like my opinion about it, so you stick that label on it. It’s intellectually lazy because it saves you from having to argue and allows you to rely solely on virtue signaling.

What’s wrong with calling Hamas terrorists? They have randomly but deliberately killed innocent people. How else would you describe that?

What do you consider to be an example of “obvious Zionism” on feddit?

Unfortunately, dbzer0 has not yet provided a consistent definition of Zionism, which is why they always resort to the broadest possible interpretation. As a result, it is essentially impossible to differentiate between the IDF and feddit.org (or at least their ideology), which is obviously stupid, but has the advantage of simplicity. One can simply throw the word around and everyone nods dutifully.

1. That’s not true. A lot of users have spoken out against defederation. Just look at the top comments here. There is no way you can speak of a “consensus” as the admin of dbzer0 claims.

2. It’s completely ridiculous to accuse feddit.org of being Zionist because particularly militant anti-Zionist forms (“Death to Israel”) are not allowed there. This line of argument is inconclusive and makes the classic conversion fallacy. But more importantly, most people on feddit.org are very critical of Israel. For example, I never read that anyone seriously denies that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Even if it did happen, it would be criticized immediately. They probably just don’t do so with the radicalism that is represented on dbzer0. Instead of concluding that there is at least a large overlap here, that the people on feddit.org are not only not allies, but in fact enemies (“fascists”), is so ridiculous that I can hardly believe that this is being advocated by adults. Yes, there have always been these stupid left-wing purity contests. But I think this reaches a new level of stupidity here.

I can’t stand this anymore. There are actual fascists who want to destroy both the users of feddit.org and dbzer0. They won’t care how purely anti-Zionist the person in question is. They’ll hang us all equally if they get the chance. But instead of uniting, we are creating new hostilities between us.

Didn’t know that, thanks!

Thanks, yes, that’s helpful. Although not exactly what I’m looking for :)

Thank you, this looks promising!