MudMan

Yeeeah, if you have to write a network of interconnected arguments in multiple languages the answer you’re transmitting may not be the one you want.

Federated apps and communities may be better off spending more effort working to be appealing and less explaining why they think they already are.

I feel like this conversation does a very good job of explaining why FOSS alternatives so often have terrible usability. “Not how most people would do it in a selfhost environment” is effectively “not how a tiny, teensy, borderline irrelevant proportion of users would do it”.

Selfhosting is moving towards being accessible to the average user in some areas. Not coincidentally, I suspect, mostly in areas where someone is trying to make money on the side (see Home Assistant increasingly trying to upsell you into their cloud subscription and branded hardware, for instance). This idea that structuring the software for the average phone user as opposed to the average home server admin is “bad” or “complicated” is baffling to me.

Oh, and for the record, no, that’s not the line for legality when it comes to watching the media I own. I am perfectly within my rights to access the files in my hard drive in any way I want. At least where I live. I make no promises for whatever dystopian crap is legal in the US. If anything there is a gray area on my using a specific type of drive to be able to rip commercial optical media that is theoretically DRMd in ways that my drive just happens to ignore. But remotely accessing my legal backups in my local storage? Nah, even if I was more worried about piracy than I am I’d feel fine on those grounds.

But also, copyright as currently designed is broken and not fit for purpose, and I suspect you don’t disagree and your pearl clutching here may have more to do with disliking Plex and not wanting to acknowledge an actually useful feature they provide than anything else. Maybe I’m reading too much into that.

I am very confused here. You seem to have slipped from arguing that it was difficult and complicated to arguing that it’s bad to be able to share content remotely because it’s a felony, which seems like a pretty big leap.

For one thing, it’s not illegal and I do rip my own media. I will access it from my phone or my laptop remotely whenever I want, thank you very much.

For another, and this has been my question all along, how is it possibly more difficult and complicated to have remote access ready to go than being “a DNS record away”? Most end users don’t even know what a DNS is.

And yes, not having (obvious) server configurations up front is transparent. That’s what I’m saying. It does mix at least two sources (their unavoidable, rather intrusive free streaming TV stuff and your library), but it doesn’t demand that you set it up. The entire idea is to not have to worry about whether it’s local content. Like I said, there are edge cases where that can lead to a subpar experience (mainly when it’s downsampling your stuff to route it the long way around without telling you), but from a UX perspective I do get prioritizing serving you the content over warning you of networking issues.

I don’t know, man, I’m not saying you shouldn’t prefer Jellyfin. I wouldn’t know, I never used it long enough to have a particularly strong opinion. I just don’t get this approach where having the thing NOT surface a bunch of technical stuff up front reads as “complicated and difficult”. I just get hung up on that.

Okay, but… how is it confusing from the front end if what you’re doing is going through the same steps of creating an account? You punch in a login and password in both.

Sure, Plex is doing this extra thing where it’s also bringing in centralized content along with your library and it will default to its remote access system if you log in from outside your network. But again, from the front-end that is transparent. You log in and you have your library. If anything they’re being a bit too transparent, I’ve had times where networking stuff got in the way and it took me a minute to notice that Plex was routing my library through their remote access system instead.

I can see objections to it working that way, you trade a (frankly super convenient) way to share content remotely and access content from outside your network without too much hassle for… well, going through someone else’s server and having their content sitting alongside yours. But “confusing and difficult” isn’t how I’d describe it. It seems to work like any other service, self-hosted or not, as far as the user-facing portions are concerned. I guess I just don’t see the confusing part there.

Wait, isn’t Jellyfin the same way? Pretty much every self-hosted app I run uses some web interface you log into so you can use it anywhere on the network. Sure, Plex also has some pre-set remote connection thing, but from the end user perspective it’s the same set of steps. I also had to make a login for all the stuff I fully self-host.

Is there no account management on Jellyfin? I would probably want that as a feature.

I barely even remember what the specific dealbreaker was, honestly. I was just dabbling, considering expanding my NAS and maybe getting the gear to dump my 4K BluRays. I gave Jellyfin a try first, I went through the setup process and I remember it being a) confusing to set up directly on my NAS, and b) very ugly.

I gave Plex a try to cover my bases and that looked better and got me up and running faster, so I just stuck with it. Easier remote access was a feature for me there, too, but the choice was made purely on the onboarding process, there was nothing activist to it. It’s maybe the most user-level, unresearched decision I’ve taken on software in a while, honestly. I was already trying to figuring out the ripping and encoding at the same time, so I didn’t want to put any additional attention on library management.

If anything I gave Jellyfin a bit more of a chance than I otherwise would have because I had heard a lot of angry chatter from people about Plex. I guess I came in after they made the changes that pissed people off and didn’t mind the state of the current product without a frame of reference. I would have bailed if there was a subscription, but they do have a one-and-done purchase, so now I’m set up, it’s working and I’ve paid them as much as I’m going to, so I’m fine with it. I do appreciate a free alternative existing, though.

Not the UI, the UX. The UI may be editable, but if I have to make my own UI to be happy with what it looks like or works like, then that’s bad UX.

I get that sometimes those terms are used interchangeably, but they’re not the same.

Hm. I gave Jellyfin a try and the UX was a turnoff, so I ended up in Plex. The separate management of metadata does sound like a pain to me, too, but maybe there’s a bit of sunk cost fallacy to that.

Either way it seems people are mostly fine with their choices and there is a viable free alternative, so… all good there.

Oh, let’s not have the Masto instance chat here. Sure, the UX for onboarding is terrible and the community’s obsession with what is ultimately a trivial concern is a problem, but that’s not a problem in search of a technical solution. Masto would have stood a better chance if it just defaulted to Mastodon.social by default, because end users shouldn’t have to know or care what instance they are using on first contact. The only reason fedi advocates obsess about this to the point of borking the most important bit of social media UX is the fiction that all instances “deserve” the same level of discoverability for some reason.

Also, invite-only instances are already a thing, at least on Masto, and as far as I can tell nothing keeps you from making a new federated app that requires invites, so this feels like a bit of a non-issue anyway.

Yeah, but that’s solved through cross-login, which I’ve already seen used at least once in Pixelfed. Logging in with a pre-existing Masto account and importing your follows should have been the default solution, but I understand how the tech may not have been in place.

Yeah, but that’s bad, though.

Hypercustomization is way more of a hassle than a positive in most applications. I will take a couple of binary settings, I won’t design the UI for you.

My contention here is that the default UI for the *Bin is actually good.

You made me go check, and the signed-out site on an incognito tab does autoselect my browser-default dark theme. It looks much better than the light, incidentally, and the highlight to the Fedi tutorial link makes more sense in this context and is clearly restricted to signed-out users as a call to action/promo thing.

I don’t necessarily think the light theme is as awful as you’re claiming, and at a glance it definitely seems to be derived from Dark and not the othe way around. The more I look into it the less this seems like a universal problem with the UX in Mbin derivatives and more “the light theme has made some debatable color choices”.

Honestly, choosing whether to default to dark or light is pretty arbitrary, and pointless once the user sets a preference on login anyway. I’m not sure if there’s a reason you can’t default to OS/browser preference on a logged out user, but also don’t think it’s a big deal. Plus highlighting a “what is this app” tile makes more sense on the logged-out default, so there’s that as well.

Which is not to say that you’re wrong on the larger point. FOSS devs having the attitude that the UI is a secondary concern or wildly misrepresenting the ability of users to deal with friction or bad looks is an ongoing frustration. I guess engineers are more likely to attempt FOSS projects than UX designers.

I suppose that’s the point of interoperability. I would much rather support an ecosystem of apps doing the exact same thing to satisfy different UX preferences than the excruciating endless talk of “which of these identical instances all plugging to the same service should I arbitrarily joing as an identity-defining statement” you get in Masto.

Hold on, that doesn’t seem like an apples to apples comparison. You’re doing light theme in one and dark in another. The light theme has a different balance (also, ow, my retinas).

The default Fedia dark theme I am using does not look like that at all. Sure, both the main column and the tool column on the right have the same emphasis, but you still get hierarchy from both the relative sizes and the positioning (if you’re a left-to-right reader, at least).

Disagree hard with ugly and awkward. It being less of that han Lemmy is the reason I use it in the first place.

If anything, I’d swap the pros and cons around, because every time I accidentally respond to a Masto post over here and half the functionality is missing I have a few seconds of confused panic before I realize what’s going on and drop that conversation altogether.

I use Mbin (well, Fedia, but same thing), and honestly I do that because of the interface. Lemmy’s UX seems so much worse.

The microblogging thing is… there, but it mostly just serves some random post here and there. It’s fine to be able to have a microblog follow in there if you want, but I think the assumption that you’d centralize multiple AP services in a single app now feels entirely obsolete. That doesn’t get in the way and it’s still a much better client for Lemmy than Lemmy, though.

Yeah, I guess that’s how mini PCs got popular in the first place. Just cram a laptop in a box, get most of the performance and less of the hassle. At a premium, of course, so I imagine on the manufacturing side it’s quite the win/win.

Still, a 10x multiplier in power consumption at idle and over 5x under load is pretty wild.

A fun one to put in perspective how hideously power hungry modern desktop PCs are is that I have an old (ish) laptop running as a local Plex server that also has a LLM loaded in there and a few other docker bits and pieces and it just sits happily humming at 10W idle (which is as much as my TV draws when it’s turned off).

I’ve looked into building a small form factor PC to replace it at some point but all the spare parts I have lying around would draw as much idle as when that tiny thing is going full tilt and I just can’t justify it for something that just stays on waiting for me to feel like rewatching The Matrix or whatever.

Yeah, man, getting into Home Assistant and messing with energy monitoring did more than thousands of chastising TV segments to get me to fully shut down my computers.

Who gives a crap about gaming use power consumption, give me idle benchmarks, you cowards. Do you even know how kWh work?