Nougat

Who’s not interested in whose opinion now?

That you’ve employed a slippery slope analogy far too widely?

I have also hired exterminators and taken antibiotics.

You shall not think of living things in hierarchical order (x is better than y)

Having to choose between my child and my dog would be a horrible choice to have to make, but I know exactly how I would make it.

More options is better.

Remind me again how things can be deleted from the internet?

I used “microblogging” earlier as a stand-in for “Twitter-like,” and I shamelessly pulled that terminology from the kbin interface. It’s accurate, but I don’t know that the term is sufficient to gain popular traction - and I certainly do not pretend to be the person to dictate what the terminology ought to be.

Now that I think about it, the core of social media of all types is “someone posts a thing” (whether that thing is a link to something else or original text content), and other people comment on it. YouTube, Xitter, Reddit, slashdot, fark, etc etc. The display format, post and comment organization, tagging options - those are all ancillary.

Federation via ActivityPub introduces a wholly new aspect to social media by separating the client application from the content accessed therethrough. I, from kbin.social, can see and interact with content posted by someone originating from mastodon.social. Content is one thing, and client application another.

People do have familiarity with that kind of separation in at least one other internet functionality: email. People generally already understand that their web interface to their email provider allows them to send and receive email both within and without that provider, and that their mobile app is just a different way to access that same content. But SMTP email is old. Since then, the aim of content providers on the internet has been to capture and contain users, using existing protocols, which causes people to consider the provider and the content to be the same thing - because in so many cases, it is.

ActivityPub is a new(ish) protocol. Functionally, it is much more like email than it is like an internet forum of any kind. Extending this comparison, SMTP email is one-to-one (yes, there can be multiple recipients, but they are all themselves “ones”); ActivityPub is one-to-many. Yes, this is similar to traditional walled-garden forums, which are also one-to-many, but those walled-gardens restrict the “many” to “those who have accounts inside our garden.” Perhaps ActivityPub is more accurately described as one-to-very many or one-to-all.

It probably seems that I am avoiding your clear and plain question. Maybe I am, but I also think it’s important to consider the details of these as-yet-unnamed things in order to arrive at an appropriate and effective way to market them. Federated social media is a public forum in a way that previous internet forums have not been since Usenet. “Forumnet” seems like it could be workable. It’s definitely more descriptive than “fediverse” (a name I have never been very pleased by).

While it gets closer, that continues to avoid your specific question. I will need to put a good deal more thought to this, and must now direct my attention elsewhere. Watch this space.

… without mentioning Twitter.

That seems like a pretty arbitrary restriction. At this point, a basic knowledge of “what Twitter is like” is a pretty general-knowledge thing.

The article refers to ActivityPub-based “microblogging” by assuming that Mastodon is the only client application available for that purpose. It is not. Mastodon is certainly the most popular client application for that purpose, but it doesn’t have to be. Other client applications exist, and a better or more popular client application could be created.

When the point of the article is to get people to comprehend that federated social media is not a “walled garden” –

People are using open, free Mastodon, but in their minds, they are still in a walled garden.

maintaining the notion that a single client application is the only way to read or create a certain kind of content is a big part of the very problem the article describes.

And the author seems to be aware of this:

Often, I hear about people trying to explain the idea behind Mastodon to someone, who is not on the Fediverse, they often explain it with e-mail. However, nowadays, people don’t even experience this “choice of service” even with e-mail anymore. They get their e-mail when signing up with google and that’s it.

GMail is not the only way to send and receive SMTP email. It’s certainly a very popular way to do so, but you wouldn’t describe a concern over people being blind to their choices of email providers (or, indeed, their ability to host their own email server) as

The current [GMail]-signup is only removing the confusion of users on first glance, because it either hides the server-choice altogether, or leaves them with a choice that is impossible to make at this point of their [GMail]-journey.

If the author, or anyone else, wants people to have a better understanding of the nature of federated social media, describing it wrong is not a path to that goal.

I said no such thing.

Here’s another way: stop referring to everything “Twitter-like” as Mastodon. Stop referring to everything “Reddit-like” as Lemmy. Those are both client platforms through which one can access ActivityPub content.

Conflating the platform with the provider with the protocol with the content is what’s confusing people.

The main reason behind Reddit’s API changes and Twitter Blue is money. This is and always will be the driving force for companies.
It makes sense. The people need to be payed, the servers need to be run.

Twitter Blue exists because Musk is an asshat, and screwed himself out of billions of dollars, and he’s trying to claw some back. Reddit’s API changes are because they’re trying to set up for an IPO to line the pockets of the board and executives, not just of Reddit, but of Advance Publications, the parent company.

That IPO set up isn’t only about profitability right now, it’s also about the profitability of reddit going forward. The effect of all the nonsense that’s going on over there is that the userbase is having the critical people culled away, leaving only the people who don’t understand or care. This means that Reddit The Company will be more in control of the content. Advertisers don’t like their ads showing up next to porn, and it’s arguable that people who are critical of the way reddit behaves are less likely to click ads (on purpose), and certainly less likely to convert into customers for those advertisers.

Did Reddit The Company plan it that way? Not a chance. They’ve been doing stupid things hamfistedly for a while, some might say since the very beginning.

As a counter to your opinion that the fediverse is not the future of the internet: Meta jumped in, Threads is an ActivityPub platform. Wikimedia has an instance now. I believe the Netherlands government stood up an instance. I don’t know the federation status of any of those, but it’s something.

The difference between standalone siloed platforms like Instagram, or Reddit, or, Digg, or SomethingAwful, or Fark, or Twitter, or, or, or – is that ActivityPub is a protocol. Anyone can write code to create a platform to use ActivityPub, and have that platform interact with other ActivityPub content in a myriad of ways. I fully expect there to come an ActivityPub platform that really catches on, much more powerfully than any of the current ones out there.

It’s where I happened to land, but I’ve been quite happy. ernest is the dev, and he’s tops. There’s a KBin Enhancement Suite going already which includes a toggle for @username@instance display, as well as plenty of other things. hariette is developing Artemis as a kbin-compatiable mobile app for iOS and Android (which also promises future lemmy compatibility). The kbin interface is pretty clean and intuitive, and I’m looking forward to how it matures.

Really, if your instance is just for you and your account (maybe a few friends, family), and you’re not running any communities on it (all your posts and comments are on other instances), there’s really no reason anyone would defed you. Unless you’re a dick.

I have to think that if your very small private instance was federated with a large public instance, your instance would pull down content from the public one. That’s bandwidth, and that’s costing the large instance some amount of money/performance. Because your small private instance isn’t “giving back” a level of content that the large instance would want or need, that could be the unpredictable reason you mentioned.

Now, I don’t see that being a real issue unless there are so many low-content instances that Large Instance reviews their usage and finds out that an unacceptably high portion of their bandwidth is being used by “leeches,” and wants to control cost.

… simply defederating will not solve this (in most cases).

Oh it would address that concern, but it’s a very heavy-handed action. At present, I don’t think there’s enough reason for instances to defed from Threads, even when there are good reasons for me to want myself to be. That really plays into my not jumping over to some instance which has already taken that step; I would wonder about how such an instance was being shepherded in other ways.

Once there are proven and reliable mobile apps for lemmy and kbin and whatever, the barrier to entry for the general public will be much lower. But the general public also needs to know that there are ways to get to fediverse content outside of the Meta environment. You and I and those like us here now are still pretty early adopters.

Threads allows Meta to start a site they can monetize that’s already full of content, without having to make the effort of getting people to create any of it. They also get to monetize content that’s not even created on their own site.

The general public does not understand federation. When Threads makes content that I have created via kbin.social visible on Threads, very many people are going to think that that content was created on Threads. And Meta then takes that content, aggregated with all the other non-Threads initiated fediverse content, and monetizes it. They are using “not their content” to enhance the desirability of their portal, and certainly placing ads in its vicinity. As with any instance, they can also curate that content to promote their chosen agenda, which is surely in part “increasing engagement.”

We’ve seen how “increasing engagement” has been done by Meta and other companies already: ragebaiting and misinformation. While there is no way to completely prevent this, I want to avoid content that I have created from being used in that way. If there was a way for me to individually defederate from Threads, so that Threads could not see my content, I would turn that switch on in an instant. So far as I know, the only way for my content to be excluded from being viewed via Threads is for the instance my account is on to defederate. I’m not in any way asking for kbin.social to defed from Threads, just noting that that is currently the only functional way to accomplish the stated goal.

I do understand that there are already instances that have done that very thing, and I am certainly able to jump over and use one of those instead. I may do that at some point, but I am pleased with the interface at kbin.social, and developer of kbin’s work. For the moment, I want to watch and see how things play out, becoming more informed before I make a decision about how I interact with the fediverse.

I once had some knob trying to argue to me that “god is real” because “the Incas believed the sun was a god, and the sun is real.”

Downvotes used to be public on reddit, too. They changed that, and further “fuzzied” the visible total vote count, because reporting those numbers perfectly accurately and publicly made it easier for astroturfers and spammers to game the system. They were able to see the effects of their sneaky efforts, which helped them identify what worked and what didn’t, which then allowed them to know which sockpuppet accounts were shadowbanned in some way.